Ehud Barak's wife Nili Priel opens the door in a fancy glass tower in northern Tel Aviv. Inside the 81-year-old former Israeli prime minister's office, there's a silk Persian rug and a spectacular view over the city and the Mediterranean Sea. Caricatures hang on the walls, along with photos of Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Yitzhak Rabin. Behind the leather-covered desk where Barak asks to be interviewed is a large-format photograph of the hostage rescue following the hijacking of Sabena Flight 571 in Tel Aviv. Barak led the successful mission in 1972. His later adversary, Benjamin Netanyahu, was under his command during that operation. Barak, who served as chair of the Labor Party, is on the center-left of the political spectrum.
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Barak, where were you on October 7 when you learned about the terror attacks from Gaza?
Barak: I was in New York because I had business there and was supposed to speak at a conference on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War. A friend called me. He said that there was a terrible attack going on in southern Israel. He said there were many dead, including many civilians, but also soldiers. Later it became clear that more than 1,000 people had been slaughtered: women, children, the elderly, entire families. What happened there was not simply a terrorist attack. It shook Israel to its core.
DER SPIEGEL: In what way?
Barak: The State of Israel was established so that Jews would have a place where they feel safe. The government has to protect their lives – it failed to do that. This is the heaviest blow we suffered since our existence.
DER SPIEGEL: Israel is highly armed and has excellent intelligence services. How could this still happen?
Barak: This is certainly a total failure of the intelligence services, the military – and politicians. Benjamin Netanyahu and his right-wing governments have indirectly helped Hamas for years. They allowed money from Qatar to flow into Gaza. There was a strategy behind that. As long as Hamas existed, Netanyahu could claim that it was impossible to negotiate with the Palestinians. Because Abu Mazen …
DER SPIEGEL: … Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority (PA) …
Barak: … doesn't control half of his people, and Hamas is a terrorist organization, that one can't talk to. At the same time, Netanyahu actively weakened the PA, which governs the West Bank and is more moderate. He wanted to block any negotiations about the emergence of a Palestinian state at all costs.
DER SPIEGEL: Netanyahu has also made domestic policy mistakes.
Barak: Netanyahu also pushed through a judicial reform, or rather a judicial coup, to save him from his indictments.
DER SPIEGEL: The prime minister is on trial for several instances of alleged corruption. He denies the allegations.
Barak: This judicial reform tore the country apart. The defense minister, the chief of staff, intelligence chiefs and former heads of the armed forces repeatedly warned that his plans weakened and risked the security of Israel. He went ahead with them anyway. Netanyahu bears personal responsibility for the biggest failure in Israel's history.
DER SPIEGEL: Can he remain prime minister after such a failure?
Barak: It is true that in many other countries, the head of government would have resigned in such a situation. But here it is more complicated, and we probably should not discuss that in detail, at this moment. But here is a story: Seventeen years ago, when Netanyahu was opposition leader, then Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stumbled into a war in Lebanon. He was heavily criticized for that. Netanyahu himself said at the time: The person who destroyed everything can't fix it. The same conclusion now applies to himself.
DER SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, he remains head of government for the time being.
Barak: Yes, that is true. But a few days ago, an emergency government was formed, which now includes two former chiefs of staff, one of whom used to be defense minister as well. These men know a lot about security, and the people of Israel and the soldiers trust them. That solves the problem for the time being.
DER SPIEGEL: Israel is fighting back on a massive scale, not only with heavy bombardments. Three-hundred thousand reservists have been called up, troops are getting ready for a ground offensive in the Gaza Strip. What is the aim?
Barak: We must completely eliminate Hamas' military capabilities: We must destroy every rocket launcher, every training ground, every weapons factory, every ammunition depot. I wish we could do that with the air force alone – but to carry out the operation, we need boots on the ground in the Gaza Strip.
Ehud Barak in Tel Aviv
Foto:Jonas Opperskalski / DER SPIEGEL
"I personally have never lost sight of the vision of a two-state solution."
DER SPIEGEL: The area is densely populated, and Hamas operates in residential areas.
Barak: Israel is doing what it can to avoid casualties among civilians. We warned for days to give people time to flee to the south. Our population was attacked in a barbaric way, we have to act. If someone didn't flee after nine days of continuous warnings, we can't change that.
DER SPIEGEL: There are places in Gaza that they say can't be evacuated easily – hospitals, for example.
Barak: Do you know where Hamas' central command center is in Gaza? Under the Shifa hospital in Gaza City. Hamas uses hospitals and schools to launch rockets from there. They abuse their own population as human shields. We are doing everything possible to avoid killing innocent people. But we cannot promise that civilians will not be harmed if they do not leave such places.
DER SPIEGEL: Some observers accuse Israel of having bombed the Ahli Arab clinic in Gaza City last Tuesday, killing hundreds of civilians.
Barak: Only 10 minutes after what happened, I was asked by an Arabic channel how it could happen. I answered them that I can tell them one thing for sure: No Israeli pilot has ever received an order to attack a hospital. Then I looked at the video clips that were available. I could hear a sound from the rocket engine, and then I saw the explosion and it was much smaller than the heavy, high-explosive bombs that we use. So, I said that my guess is that this was a misguided missile that did not fly as planned because of technical problems. It has happened quite often in the past.
DER SPIEGEL: Hamas is in control of Gaza. If Israel invades and eliminates them, who will rule there in the future?
Barak: Fifteen years ago, when I was defense minister and we were approaching another clash with Hamas, I made a proposal to then President Hosny Mubarak of Egypt and to Abu Mazen of the PA: That after the cease-fire, a multinational Arab force could take control for three to six months. The idea was for this force to gradually transfer control to the PA. Both Mubarak and Abu Mazen rejected it forcefully. But 15 years have passed since then, and perhaps that would now be possible.
DER SPIEGEL: If both Palestinian territories, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, end up under the administration of the PA again – will the prospect of a Palestinian state come back into view?
Barak: I personally have never lost sight of the vision of a two-state solution, because it is in our own interest. There are parts of the Netanyahu government that see it differently. But now is not the time to discuss it. We will talk about these things when the war is over.
DER SPIEGEL: U.S. President Joe Biden visited Israel last week, and the U.S. secretaries of state and defense were also here. Why is the cooperation with the U.S. particularly important right now?
Barak: We would never ask other countries to fight for us. We do that ourselves. But we appreciate the American help very much. It ensures that our army is militarily superior to that of any other country in the region. The visits were also a signal to Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon: Think carefully about whether you really want to get involved in this war. The fact that the U.S. has moved aircraft carriers and soldiers to the Middle East is also a message to them. It's to deter them. At the same time, the U.S. presence is also a reminder to Israel: We stand by your side, but in return we expect you to respect international law. That you try to minimize the consequences for civilians.
DER SPIEGEL: Russia is closely allied with Iran and the Assad regime in Syria. Until now, there was a fear in Israel that the Russians would block Israeli air strikes against Iranian weapons deliveries. That's why Israeli aid to Ukraine has been limited and hesitant. Will that change now?
Barak: I think Israel should have stood by Ukraine more from the beginning. We should be the first to stand up when a nation wants to wipe its neighbor off the map. I think that would have been possible. After all, it is in Putin's own interest in Syria to have a good relationship with Israel.
DER SPIEGEL: Iran and Hezbollah continue to threaten to enter the war if Israel goes on the offensive in Gaza. How significant is the danger of a two-front war?
Barak: I think the probability of a major war between Israel and Hezbollah is about 50 percent. I hope that it will remain at a level of smaller skirmishes – but, of course, I don't know. If a full-scale war breaks out, we are prepared. Israel has suffered a heavy blow, but we are resilient. If we have to fight on several fronts, we will. And we will win.