Gaby Pérez Islas, Master in Thanatology and expert in grief: "It's not true that the more you've loved someone, the more you have to suffer"

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How does a person end up mastering in Thanatology, the comprehensive scientific knowledge of death, from the rites to its biological, social and spiritual meaning? The story of Gaby Pérez Islas (Mexico City, February 7, 1966) is curious because she just began specializing on the other side of the life chain: in children's literature. "I worked with children in an early stimulation center and the owner was very happy with my work and invited me to be a partner," she recalls. This happened on a Thursday and, on the following Monday, he summoned all the governing bodies to announce the closure of the centre. "Imagine, I thought I was going to make society public. What really happened is that on Saturday he tried to kill himself."

This shock changed Perez's life. She was a young, successful girl, with a husband who adored her, two small children and fulfilling her life's dream, which was this school, she says. "How is it possible that the line on mental health is so thin?" Thus, from a very close case is how he wanted to specialize in Thanatology. "And, from the beginning of life, I focused on the end. I discovered a vocation, a life mission, which today has taken me 25 years of professional practice."

On All Saints' Day, Spaniards go to cemeteries to lay flowers for loved ones who are no longer with us. Is it a good idea to remember the dead or does that make us sadder? In Mexico we celebrate All Souls' Day, on November 2nd, we feel that the dead return to enjoy life. What are these celebrations about? It is not a tribute to death, but to life. It's a party for those people who are no longer here, but lived. What do you use to repay someone for their dedication, their presence or their passage through your life? With your happiness. St. Teresa said: 'Do not die with your dead, because there is no homage in it. Live for your dead.' Bringing flowers to a grave or cemetery is very nice if it is done from love. Not from pain. Christmas is approaching and many people are suffering from the gaps that are missing... How to face those family days? You don't have to look at those empty chairs, you don't even have to put them up. Today's presences can be tomorrow's absences. If I stare at the floor for those who aren't there, I don't look up to enjoy those who are. I think it is essential that we do not leave our headboards empty in these celebrations. If our grandfather or father always sat in the same place and it hurts, let's have a buffet. Without sitting down. But let's celebrate life instead of cursing death. Blessing having had is the key. He writes in his book: "Suffering is obligatory but its duration is optional." It is striking that it modifies a classic thought. When and how do you know that you have gone through that sadness? For a long time it was said that suffering was optional and, although it sounds nice, it is false. We're all going to suffer in this life at some point because it's one of the three things you have, along with getting sick and dying. There's no human being who's going to skip it. Suffering is the emotional pain that the loss generates in you. It has always been believed that if it lasted a long time, the mourning was greater. And that's not the case. It's not true that the more you've loved someone, the more you have to suffer. The more you love, the more satisfaction you have for the duty you have. If I have loved well, I can return to being happy remembering with more love than pain. I don't have to regret what I did or should have. Love wins over pain. They are not the same size. You have to let go of the pain and not suffer all your life. Everyone agrees that there is no greater loss than that of a child. Can we move forward in the face of this tragedy? It's brutal. You don't get over it, you accept it. To overtake is to leave behind, like when you pass a car for overtaking. To accept is to acknowledge that your life stopped and I have to continue traveling alone. I've seen parents who are happy again. That doesn't mean they forget their child, but they are grateful to have had them. I have asked in therapy if, if they had known the fatal outcome, they would have had it anyway and everyone agrees that they did. It was worth it. The gift and the light do not end, although there is no word to define that loss, such as widow for the husband or orphan for the father. Yes, on the other hand, he has a lifetime office: he is called mother or father. You are a lifetime. It is possible to return to a different happiness, only it changes its face. Mourning has been deeply rooted in Spanish culture as a way of experiencing pain externally, especially in the villages. Is this way of externalizing it changing with the new generations? Mourning is all behaviors out and grief is all what's going on inside. Understood as the traditions: wearing black, celebrating masses, praying rosaries... It has been relaxed, although those who do not respect funeral protocols continue to be strongly judged. That seems good to me because true sadness is felt in the soul, you don't have to carry a brick hanging, as Benedetti said. You don't have to wait two years of your life to have another partner if you feel that in life you were loyal. Widower is not a marital status, there are only single and married people. You can have a partner even though you know you're going to be judged. But traditions are part of identity and, as such, are valuable. Is there a rush to get over death? Yes, there is, and the problem is that grief is medicated. In the U.S., if you get stuck for more than six months, they quickly give you pills, because it's listed in the DSM-5, the book of mental illness, so that the labs can give you antidepressants and anxiolytics. I don't like that. If we modify mourning to relax it, that's fine, but mourning is slow cooking. Don't want to rush it. Death is a very taboo subject in childhood. Should it be talked about and integrated as part of life or can it cause trauma? Overprotection is a form of aggression. Today with smartphones and social media it seems impossible, but it happens. By overprotecting them, we disqualify them for life. It's very hard to talk to a child about sexual abuse, but you can't send him to summer camp without talking to him about it. You have to warn him that no one can touch him inappropriately, although you wish you didn't have to explain that to him. You don't want to put him at risk. The same goes for death. There is so much bad information out there that, if the child doesn't find answers at home, they will look for them outside. We have tried to institutionalize death. That they wake up at a funeral, that they die in a hospital... All out. And children are far removed from this. That's why they get anxious if someone dies: they feel like they're all going to start dying. Talking about these issues is essential as long as there is truth, but truth at their level and accompanied. Plus, you can't hide it after a pandemic and two wars all day on TV. It has to be informed and not saturated. Instruction is not at odds with a happy childhood. You mentioned two wars, the Ukraine-Russia war and the Israel-Palestine war, although there are many more. Are we normalizing death by seeing it in real time and no longer feeling anything? Why do some deaths hurt more than others, is it because of geographical or ideological proximity? Are we dehumanized? No doubt we are, because look: 100 deaths is a statistic, but one death is a tragedy, because it's mine. On the one hand, turning on the TV teaches us a very tragic and sudden death. That snatches. No one has the death they deserve, but only the one they deserve. But dying is natural and is the relief from discomfort if someone has been very ill. We cannot normalize the hundreds of deaths, the violence and the intolerance. But death should be able to be spoken of from another place, that of the cycles of nature, plants and animals. Tell children that every beginning is an end in itself. Endings make us sad and beginnings make us happy. There is no one without the other. There are many more wars than those that appear on television, as you say, and the one that worries me the most is the intra-family war, the one that happens to children inside the home with the poor mental and emotional health of the children. parents. That is the first one that we should address because those children who grow up in violent environments of abuse and disqualification, tomorrow they can be violent aggressors. Broken people cut others too.What role does spirituality play in grief? Enormous. Just as in addictions there is no recovery without spirituality, neither in grief there is. I'm not talking about religiosity, but about being profound. From an elemental faith that tells you that there is going to be an order, that things are going to get better. Because this balances catastrophic thinking. Parents must review the discourse at home, because tragedy and hopelessness are contagious, and yet, trying to look for the rainbow at the worst possible moment, as the father does in Life is Beautiful, provides a kinder face to the hardest thing you are experiencing. Does 'go out and have fun' serve to cover up sadness? It's like putting a band-aid on a hemorrhage. It holds you back for a moment. Distracting yourself works, but avoidance can be a path of excess. Maybe with alcohol, sex, medicines, drugs, gambling... If it becomes evasion, it will cost you a very expensive bill. Instead of telling someone not to think about getting out of pain, we should encourage them to feel, because it's the only way to heal. You have to go through the pain, but every wound is the beginning of a scar. The needs of the bereaved are an expression and accommodation of the loss to the new reality. It deals with grief that has nothing to do with death. One of them is the breakup. How do you get rid of attachment, especially in cases where there are still feelings? The "death" of a relationship affects the ego, which is supremely hurt in a case of divorce in which you are the one left or infidelity. Why me? Why this way? You don't do this to me. And then we were hooked. The grieving process for love endings is usually very complicated in the anger stage. It is the second leading cause of suicide attempts in young people and the leading cause of depression in women between the ages of 35 and 45. It is a mental health issue that we have to address to understand that it is licit to stop loving you but that you can never stop loving yourself. It is not allowed. If someone didn't love you, it's not because you're not worthy. Maybe he didn't know how to value you or it wasn't the right time. Infidelity is always a mistake that the other person makes. Why are you going to be bitter for the rest of your life? An unexpected layoff can be a living death if the job defines us. How can you not be paralyzed by fear? Without a doubt, work is part of our identity. Human beings need to belong. Suddenly, you feel like you've been chastised out of the pack. Depending on your financial situation, you're going to handle it differently. Having debts to pay is not the same as having savings. Each grief is unique. I need to know what you gained when you lost. While for some people it's the only thing they have and their whole life, for others, it's something they already wanted to let go. And there are birds that don't fly until they have their branches cut off. They wouldn't have gotten out of there voluntarily, even though they weren't happy. Sometimes a no is because another yes is coming. Do consciousness analysis even if you're scared and think that you haven't lost your creativity or your ability to work. Bring out the gifts and qualities to take a turn, learn or look for something new.

• HBPR