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Hirbod Dehghani-azar, lawyer: "The actions of the Iranian regime can be qualified as crimes against humanity"

Since the announcement of the death of the young Mahsa Amini, on September 16, 2022, the regime of the Islamic Republic, determined to silence dissenting voices, has intensified its repression against protesters and demonstrators. What legal instruments do regime officials use? What can be the role of the diaspora in this struggle? Interview with Hirbod Dehghani-azar, lawyer at the Paris Bar, member of the National Bar Council, former member of the Council of the Paris Bar Association and co-founders of several Franco-Iranian collectives.

Me Hirbod Dehghani-azar in the studios of RFI, August 2023. © DK / RFI

By: Darya Kianpour Follow

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RFI: Since September 16, 2022, events have highlighted the Iranian regime's continuation of the repressive policy: executions, torture, imprisonment, rape, intimidation, kidnappings... Facts reported by the UN and various NGOs. How can these abuses be legally qualified?

Hirbod Dehghani-azar: For 44 years, the Iranian regime has been committing what we can call, by our law, crimes against humanity, crimes that are multiplying. How can they be qualified? The problem is that as a French lawyer, I can qualify them under international law, but under Iranian law, since Iran has not ratified many conventions, these qualifications remain ineffective. And in any case, given the state of Iranian courts and the situation of Iranian lawyers who no longer have any independence, it is impossible to initiate any action to condemn these abuses. I would like to take this opportunity to salute the courage of Iranian activist lawyers who, despite this situation, are resisting and trying to defend themselves.

Since the justice system is corrupt, especially in the context of the exceptional justice system implemented over the past year against protesters, the horizon seems rather bleak. Iranian justice, as we know, is under the high hand of the regime. And lawyers, despite their courage to defend litigants, always find themselves in a situation where they must also defend their own rights. The Iranian authorities do not distinguish between those who, by virtue of their profession, defend and those they defend. You are accused of defending someone going so far as to imprison you for it. I have told the story of this cartoon several times in which we see two prison cells; the prisoner asks, "Where is my lawyer?" And at the next door, his lawyer says, "I'm just here, don't worry!" Both are imprisoned.

To return to your question, in international law, one can easily describe the abuses of the Iranian regime as crimes against humanity, under various titles.

How many lawyers are currently in prison? How many people have been arrested, executed or imprisoned?

The census shows that more than 70 lawyers are currently imprisoned, and some are "intermittent prisoners", as they make many trips there according to the people and causes they defend. More generally, in connection with the protests, 537 people have died, more than 20,000 arrests, seven demonstrators were hanged and more than 300 girls' schools were chemically attacked.

It must be remembered that all the figures on Iran are subject to discussion, because there are so many people disappeared from the radar that we do not know if they are in prison, if they are silent, if they are dead... Even for executions, we do not have the exact figures, we only have the so-called "official" executions, that is to say announced by the judicial authorities. But on all these people who die murdered or forgotten in a corner, we do not have figures. There are so many scandals that are publicized, for example about the trafficking of organs of the disappeared. There are, every day, revelations that worry us a lot. In any case, we will only know a posteriori and imprecisely how many deaths there really were in Iran, how many people were tortured and raped. There is a lot of pressure, including on the families and loved ones of the victims not to speak out.

To return to the fate of the lawyers, first, the Iranian services arrested some of them, convicted others, then they said that cases relating to national security are referred to a special court and they limited the choice of lawyers from a specific list of state lawyers chosen by the regime. Then, last June, they completely put the Bar Associations under supervision and blew up the notion of independence, which incidentally was only theoretical. The lawyers who, today in Iran, are doing their job, they are heroes, because they are not under any functional protection. All over the world, there is a functional protection of the lawyer who is not confused with his client. In Iran, some lawyers are attacked personally. Their property, including family property, is confiscated. We must really pay tribute to these confreres who do their work in these conditions. They suffer these abuses in their flesh and do very dangerous work. The situation is the same for journalists, for activists... No one is safe in Iran.

What are the possible legal actions before international bodies?

It is always very unwise for a lawyer to talk about legal actions and reveal his strategy. However, there are possible actions in French law, particularly in terms of cybercrime and incitement to hatred by social networks, because the French judge recognizes his jurisdiction when a national is attacked and there are various cases of cyberattacks that have been relayed to us. At the international level, actions are also possible. On the other hand, it is quite difficult, because Iran has not ratified many conventions. However, there are certain conventions that give us hope in the long term: we know that for war crimes, crimes against humanity, mass crimes, there was no competent judge at the time of the facts. It is by gathering evidence, showing repetitiveness and extreme seriousness and raising awareness in the international community that the modalities of prosecution have been succeeded a posteriori in creating the modalities of prosecution. Today, we are working the International Convention on Apartheid of 30 November 1973, which Iran ratified in 1985. We are trying to bring gender apartheid into this convention as a crime against humanity.

Is there any chance that this kind of action will succeed?

In the long run, I have no doubt. Right away, it's going to be complicated. At the UN level, it is clear that there is a rather vague language. On the one hand, it appoints Iranian officials to key positions. On the other, it creates a commission of inquiry into the regime's abuses! So it's a bit complicated to understand. Since Iran has not ratified the conventions giving jurisdiction to the International Criminal Court, this is a very difficult process. Now, there are different ways to go to this Court; This is where politics and legal intermingle. And if one day we succeed, through pressure, in bringing a convergence between politics and law – and this is what many collectives are trying to do – and we obtain in particular the inclusion of the Revolutionary Guards on the list of terrorist organizations, we will manage to implement a procedure.

We have already done a lot of things, since we have managed to denounce certain facts at the UN, or bar access to positions to senior Iranian dignitaries. The matter was referred to the Special Rapporteur on the freedom of lawyers and judges. It was Richard Sédillot who made this referral on behalf of the National Council of Bars, the Paris Bar and other associations. The various actions of the Iranian diaspora have made it possible to set up a real discussion at the European level on the competence of the European institutions to include the Revolutionary Guards on the list of terrorist organizations. Above all, Iranian personalities have been placed on lists of sanctioned persons. So, when I say "we", it's not me, it's the entire Iranian community that, outside Iran, but in relation to Iranian activists, is active to assist and help the population in the country. Even if everyone, in his corner, can say that what we do is not enough, all this combined, it makes its little way.

What happens in Iran will also have consequences directly in Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and other countries, and indirectly in France.

Precisely, what can be done to ensure that judicial action is not hampered by diplomatic considerations?

I wish I was more naïve than I am. I do not believe that there can be legal actions completed and carried out in the absence of convergence with political actions. Diplomatic actions are often hampered by our own divisions. That is why we must succeed in establishing unity on great principles and demonstrate that there is a path. To this end, several of us have set up an associative platform called "Nowrouz" for a few days. It is an apolitical platform to bring together as widely as possible and usefully assist the Iranian population in its action.

Do you think that Western countries – including the French government, since we are in France – are sensitive to this kind of action and discourse?

I don't think it's fair to say that no democratic country is not sensitive to the broader human rights discourse. The difficulty is to distinguish in law between interference in the affairs of a country and the obligation under international law and intervening because of the gravity of the abuses. For me, the real difficulty in France is that often, there is an assimilation of the Iranian case with other countries, for example Syria. It may be a little presumptuous, but I am always very surprised when I hear the knowers, the diplomats, talking about Iran. I am always very surprised by the assimilation that is made on the basis of religious closeness while ignoring considerations about Iranian history, culture and all other specificities. Iran is a country full of contrasts and, in France, perhaps not enough is known about these contrasts. There is a general knowledge of the map but it lacks the relief. And to make a decision, you need both.

Taking into account the realities of everyday life, don't political actions seem more effective than legal actions?

We’ll cross that bridge when we get there. Because, for example, to have a personality or a company included on a sanctions list, whether at European or international level, there is a whole amount of work to collect information and make legal qualifications. Is it a legal action or is it a political action? One serves the other. So it's all pretty connected. Legal action is linked to political action, and political action paves the legal way. That's why I'm telling you that at some point, the two have to converge.

What can be done apart from possible legal actions?

Communicate about Iran, raise public awareness, mobilize the entire diaspora, create the conditions for what is happening in Iran to be heard outside, each with his means. Especially since what is happening in Iran is not without consequences in France, Europe or elsewhere. We know that the money that finances terrorist organizations also passes through Iran, which has been very well reported by many journalists. There is cause for concern when we look at what is happening in all the regions where the France is in a difficult situation. Just look at Iran's intervention today in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. So, it's kind of crazy to believe that what's happening in Iran stays in Iran. This is something that can be shown, that can be denounced. And indeed, some are fighting to say that what happens in Iran will have consequences as directly in Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, and other countries, and indirectly in France. It's important to emphasize that every time.

La répression et les exécutions en Iran ne datent pas d'hier. Elles ont commencé dès les premiers jours de la République islamique. Pour mener les actions judiciaires, jusqu'où peut-on remonter dans le temps ?

Pour les crimes de guerre et les crimes contre l'humanité, juridiquement, en droit international, il n'y a pas de prescription, c'est imprescriptible. Donc, on peut remonter sans limite de temps. La difficulté qui va se poser, c'est la problématique de la preuve, parce qu'y compris les bourreaux auront le droit, et c'est normal, à une défense, et donc il faudra qu'on ait les éléments de preuve. C'est d'ailleurs pour ça qu'aujourd'hui certains collectifs parmi lesquels « Iran Justice », mais d'autres aussi, participent aux collectes des preuves en France et dans d’autres pays. Par exemple, la fondation Boroumand fait ça depuis des années. On doit faire créer des bases de données, créer de la documentation, documenter au maximum pour pouvoir justement, un jour, poursuivre ce régime. Mais ces crimes sont imprescriptibles.

Mais plus le temps passe, plus les démarches judiciaires deviennent difficiles. Comment peut-on faire pour que l'action du temps ne rende pas les démarches impossibles ?

Je ne peux pas vous dire comment on peut faire. Je peux juste souligner le danger de ne pas faire. Ne pas faire, c'est ne pas communiquer dessus, ne pas garder des preuves, ne pas diffuser ce qui se passe en Iran, ne pas recourir à la presse parce que toute preuve est utile, ne pas permettre aux gens qui sont en Iran de nous envoyer de l'information. Ce qu'on peut faire, c'est essayer de créer des unités de recherche pour aller chercher des preuves et constituer des archives, avoir des témoignages pour que le jour où la juridiction spécialisée, que ce soit la Cour pénale internationale ou une autre juridiction, est saisie, elle ait les moyens d'instruction et puisse agir. Ce qu'il faut faire, c'est continuer à créer des bases de données. Beaucoup de gens, en Iran notamment, ont fait ce travail et le jour où ils auront l’opportunité, ils sauront par où commencer pour avoir le droit à la juste réparation de leur préjudice et le droit à la vérité et ils se donneront les moyens de parvenir à leurs fins.

Divisions within the diaspora mean that the agony of the Iranian population continues.

You have also participated in the founding of various collectives, including Iran Justice, Azadi4Iran and, most recently, Nowruz. What do you think of the action of collectives and the diaspora in France?

The action of the collectives in France is very rich and very strong, but sometimes sectoral, in reality. Even before being in this movement since last September and participating in accompanying the movement of the Iranian people, I had the chance, or the bad luck, to participate in the work of the National Council of Bars and, before that, the Council of the Bar Association in Paris, where we defended lawyers – we did a lot especially for our colleague Nasrin Sotoudeh. After September 16, there was a popular movement and solidarity of the diaspora, many collectives were created in a very informal way, including these two collectives that you mentioned, with different objectives. For example, Azadi4Iran was a collective where we made forums, we went to get signatures, we mobilized people on the Iranian cause. My colleague Richard Sédillot in particular, initiated a video in which artists cut a lock of hair. There were plays and a lot of artistic events that took place around what was happening in Iran.

Iran Justice is a collective of about fifteen lawyers who spontaneously came together. I joined him pretty quickly. Today, it is structured as an association, chaired by my colleague Chirine Adakani. I am on the board of directors. The work of this association is really focused on collecting evidence about abuses, and possible prosecutions, etc. Now, with time and the multiplication of abuses, many other collectives have joined this action of collecting evidence. For example, "We Are Iranians Students" mobilizes around the cases of students in Iran. This collective is very active in gathering evidence of repression in universities. There is also an artists' collective that was created by an Iranian artist that I really like, Sépand Danesh, who works on abuses against children. A collective of doctors who mobilized for their colleagues in Iran, but also Femme Azadi, Actions4Iran, Neda d'Iran, Queers and Feminists for Iran and many others. All these collectives, quite sectoral, have each worked in their sector.

We managed to come together on certain causes, but it is increasingly difficult today, I say this very sincerely, to have coordinated action that would allow us to collectively express our support for the Iranians. When I talk to those in Iran, they say they would like us all to be united for them and not divided. Unfortunately, these collectives, today sectoral, remain a little furrow of their sector. We also have difficulties around the political issues that can be seen in France: problems of parties, groups, movements... And we transpose these differences to the fight for the Iranian cause. This is precisely what the regime of the Islamic Republic has tried to do for 44 years: divide the opposition to better rule and keep all its strength. And today, personally, I blame myself, I say it openly, our divisions make the agony of the Iranian population continue. It is therefore important and urgent to agree on at least the characterization of crimes against humanity. The need of the Iranian people is to be supported by all and to have a common base of interventions made up of our fundamental principles. That's why we created Nowruz.

Despite these difficulties, what actions have you taken over the past year?

There have been many actions carried out by different collectives. We collected abuses, we organized events, demonstrations, we managed to provide a lot of VPNs to get feedback. Lawyers, doctors, journalists, we have all tried to mobilize as many people as possible, we have implemented legal schemes for tomorrow. We have even approached colleagues at the international level, for example for lawyers, with lawyers from other countries. We denounced, we shook the political world, public opinion. We made sure that we talked about what is happening in Iran, because during the previous uprisings before September 16, 2022, during all these years of the Islamic Republic, we had not mobilized enough.

Today, what has changed is that Iran's youth are at the top numerically speaking. That is to say, young people are extraordinarily resilient and malicious, since they always manage to bring back information. They are really putting themselves in danger, but they manage to give us information and they are waiting for us to relay them and mobilize widely to denounce what is happening in the country. If, in the past, there have been numerous massacres, it is because they have been forgotten. In Iran, people remain very active. For a time, they were demonstrating in the street, but they were massacred there. So they organized different forms of protest in the subway, shopping malls, in small mobile groups in neighborhoods. When there were crackdowns in universities, schools started on strike; When children and girls were gassed in schools, parents squatted in front of schools to protect children. So there are always these actions and reactions that are implemented. And we here can only carry their voice and, each time, collect the information and try to qualify it and make sure that we do not forget it.

I think it was Victor Hugo who said that revolution is like a river that is born from the gathering of streams. Streams are all these little actions that we are talking about. Today, the Iranian government, through its abuses, creates these streams and feeds the river.

But political differences exist everywhere. Are members of the Iranian diaspora obliged to be under the same flag?

We must have a common foundation that makes us accept the differences of others. The regime in Iran is trying to divide men and women, different religions, different regions, left and right. If we do the same thing here, then we have not done better than the mullahs. While we have points of convergence that are very clear: gender equality, the abolition of the death penalty, the right to a fair trial, the absence of any attack on human integrity, children's rights, secularism. On this common basis, we can agree and put in place joint actions. In this case, we can accept the differences of each other. But unfortunately, we often do not even have the opportunity to discuss it, since the prerequisite for any discussion brings us back to issues that we have all known for 44 years. We each live, vicariously, a particular story. Personally, I arrived in France at the age of 10 with, already, a heavy story on my shoulders. We carry all our wounds from our previous lives.

Today, in Iran, the generation leading the revolution may not know these stories. Those who are in prisons today have nothing to do with it. And tomorrow, if we manage to do something, it is they who will have the choice, it is they who will go to the polls and vote for their choice. The diaspora must be united to be useful to them. So, I say at least on the major events, on the great causes, we must be able to have a common base which is democracy and that we show the whole world that on this foundation, we all agree.

The Iran Justice collective wanted to file several complaints with the Paris prosecutor. What is the situation?

The job is done. There are complaints and legal actions. But understand that on legal actions, I must remain very discreet, because the judicial strategy also requires a certain discretion not to allow the opposing party to vent this strategy. So, today, this work remains relevant and it is done in France as well as abroad.

The representative of the Islamic Republic of Iran was appointed a few months ago to head the Social Forum of the United Nations Human Rights Council. Can this have an impact on your work, on the efforts of human rights organizations?

I think it is above all an insult to the Iranian people. This is clearly a bad joke and a disgrace to the institution. This shows the unfairness of this political action and its inadequacy with the suffering of Iranians. Will it discourage some? I think it will even generate more energy, because on the other hand, we also have the UN special rapporteur who vigorously denounces the abuses in Iran. But this is a real problem. How do you want this international organization to be credible? It shows even more that the work must be done on the ground and, instead of relying only on institutions, most often held back by political politics, we must rather rely on principles and conventions that they themselves are responsible for maintaining and implementing.

Is there a possibility to stop "this bad joke," as you say?

Many of us have written to the UN, but are we being heard? This requires political courage. And the day when there is this courage, it will perhaps be the last stream that can create the river of revolution, to finish with the words of Victor Hugo.

" READ ALSO Executions in Iran: "Silence is guilty," protests lawyer Chirinne Ardakani

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